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	<title>Comments on: I don&#039;t believe in Acceptance Tests</title>
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		<title>By: PM Hut</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-32</link>
		<dc:creator>PM Hut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Nov 2008 20:14:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-32</guid>
		<description>Acceptance Testing can be viewed from 2 perspectives:
- The development company (A)
- The client (B)

I want to focus on the financial aspect of the acceptance testing. (A) and (B) usually do the acceptance testing together (I know I&#039;m saying the obvious), and at the end of the test, (B) can either accept or reject the product, in the latter case (A) as to work more in order to deliver the product to meet (B)&#039;s criteria. Acceptance testing is usually loathed by development companies and sometimes (I&#039;ve seen it happening) (B) uses acceptance to its benefit, such not releasing payments, etc... When the acceptance is signed, it means that everything is OK with the product, and all outstanding funds have to be paid, and the product will then move from development phase to maintenance phase (where the monetary part will be handled by a different, ongoing contract mainly turning the customer into a cash cow).

I think acceptance testing are unavoidable, but usually both parties (especially the customer) use them for their advantages.

PM Hut - http://www.pmhut.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Acceptance Testing can be viewed from 2 perspectives:<br />
- The development company (A)<br />
- The client (B)</p>
<p>I want to focus on the financial aspect of the acceptance testing. (A) and (B) usually do the acceptance testing together (I know I&#8217;m saying the obvious), and at the end of the test, (B) can either accept or reject the product, in the latter case (A) as to work more in order to deliver the product to meet (B)&#8217;s criteria. Acceptance testing is usually loathed by development companies and sometimes (I&#8217;ve seen it happening) (B) uses acceptance to its benefit, such not releasing payments, etc&#8230; When the acceptance is signed, it means that everything is OK with the product, and all outstanding funds have to be paid, and the product will then move from development phase to maintenance phase (where the monetary part will be handled by a different, ongoing contract mainly turning the customer into a cash cow).</p>
<p>I think acceptance testing are unavoidable, but usually both parties (especially the customer) use them for their advantages.</p>
<p>PM Hut &#8211; <a href="http://www.pmhut.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.pmhut.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: thekua.com@work &#187; Automated story-based acceptance tests lead to unmaintainable systems</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-31</link>
		<dc:creator>thekua.com@work &#187; Automated story-based acceptance tests lead to unmaintainable systems</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 20:24:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-31</guid>
		<description>[...] teams seem to know what to do. It sounds exactly like the scenarios that my colleagues, Phillip and Sarah are experiencing or experienced [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] teams seem to know what to do. It sounds exactly like the scenarios that my colleagues, Phillip and Sarah are experiencing or experienced [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-30</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-30</guid>
		<description>@kerry - I am glad that you refactor your tests - I assume that you align your functional tests with acceptance tests when you first do your story ie don&#039;t have a separate test just as one point of contact to show that the story is complete, but rather dispersed throughout your tests.

@mark - the difference that I have seen in acceptance vs integration tests is that while integration tests are run in the same test suite as unit tests (ie nunit/junit/test runner) acceptance tests often use a different tool (eg JBehave, RSpec, Selenium, Watir/Watin). Because you are writing the test in a different tool set, for one you constantly need to switch between the different styles of testing. Also you tend to need to repeat your self in acceptance tests to bring the environment into a state in which you can start testing (ie implementing all the Given conditions first).
@toni - Have we really got sufficient tools now to get the customers to write functional tests? You may argue that JBehave2 aims to put this in the hands of the customer, but at the end of the day, the developers need to implement those tests. I have found that letting the business people specify the tests (ie they write given when then) and you take that interface and write the implementation underneath leads to inefficient tests, which means long build time which has a spiraling effect.

@all - thanks for the comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@kerry &#8211; I am glad that you refactor your tests &#8211; I assume that you align your functional tests with acceptance tests when you first do your story ie don&#8217;t have a separate test just as one point of contact to show that the story is complete, but rather dispersed throughout your tests.</p>
<p>@mark &#8211; the difference that I have seen in acceptance vs integration tests is that while integration tests are run in the same test suite as unit tests (ie nunit/junit/test runner) acceptance tests often use a different tool (eg JBehave, RSpec, Selenium, Watir/Watin). Because you are writing the test in a different tool set, for one you constantly need to switch between the different styles of testing. Also you tend to need to repeat your self in acceptance tests to bring the environment into a state in which you can start testing (ie implementing all the Given conditions first).<br />
@toni &#8211; Have we really got sufficient tools now to get the customers to write functional tests? You may argue that JBehave2 aims to put this in the hands of the customer, but at the end of the day, the developers need to implement those tests. I have found that letting the business people specify the tests (ie they write given when then) and you take that interface and write the implementation underneath leads to inefficient tests, which means long build time which has a spiraling effect.</p>
<p>@all &#8211; thanks for the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: toni</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-29</link>
		<dc:creator>toni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 06:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-29</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll quote Eric Gamma in XP Embrace change he writes: &quot;If testing is good, everybody will test all the time (unit testing), even the customers
(functional testing).&quot;

Dev writing tests is good, but not enough, making the customer writing tests we&#039;ll ensure the system works as he really wants, not as we understood it should work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll quote Eric Gamma in XP Embrace change he writes: &#8220;If testing is good, everybody will test all the time (unit testing), even the customers<br />
(functional testing).&#8221;</p>
<p>Dev writing tests is good, but not enough, making the customer writing tests we&#8217;ll ensure the system works as he really wants, not as we understood it should work.</p>
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		<title>By: Sarah Taraporewalla&#8217;s Technical Ramblings &#187; Are types of testing important?</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-28</link>
		<dc:creator>Sarah Taraporewalla&#8217;s Technical Ramblings &#187; Are types of testing important?</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 20:45:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-28</guid>
		<description>[...] comments on my last post about acceptance tests have made me think a little more about testing, particularly the value in specifically declaring [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] comments on my last post about acceptance tests have made me think a little more about testing, particularly the value in specifically declaring [...]</p>
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		<title>By: It&#8217;s not all about the acceptance tests at Mark Needham</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-27</link>
		<dc:creator>It&#8217;s not all about the acceptance tests at Mark Needham</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Oct 2008 15:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-27</guid>
		<description>[...] few of my colleagues recently posted their opinions about acceptance tests which tied in nicely with a [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] few of my colleagues recently posted their opinions about acceptance tests which tied in nicely with a [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jay Padinjaredath</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay Padinjaredath</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 19:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-26</guid>
		<description>I agree with you. If you read Deming, he indicates that testing a product&#039;s quality once its manufactured is wasteful. You&#039;re better off improving the quality in the first place.

I was thinking about unit testing and acceptance testing, the former helps bring quality into the product (and more) and the latter tests the product after its finished.

I have posted Deming&#039;s 14 points here:
http://blog.jayanthan.com/2008/09/skip-to-content-w-edward-deming%E2%80%99s-out-of-crisis-ii/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you. If you read Deming, he indicates that testing a product&#8217;s quality once its manufactured is wasteful. You&#8217;re better off improving the quality in the first place.</p>
<p>I was thinking about unit testing and acceptance testing, the former helps bring quality into the product (and more) and the latter tests the product after its finished.</p>
<p>I have posted Deming&#8217;s 14 points here:<br />
<a href="http://blog.jayanthan.com/2008/09/skip-to-content-w-edward-deming%E2%80%99s-out-of-crisis-ii/" rel="nofollow">http://blog.jayanthan.com/2008/09/skip-to-content-w-edward-deming%E2%80%99s-out-of-crisis-ii/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Wildt</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Wildt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 16:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-25</guid>
		<description>Good one.

I believe acceptance testing is a good way to keep track in what is important with one story for the whole team.

I focus on proving it works with integration/persistence/unit tests.

But... we cannot forget that we must have useful documentation... and maintainability is an important attribute in that way. So, if it is not working, the team need to figure out some other way.

In my current environment, not every test is approved to become automated, and even if approved, it&#039;s based on a scenario, not a story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good one.</p>
<p>I believe acceptance testing is a good way to keep track in what is important with one story for the whole team.</p>
<p>I focus on proving it works with integration/persistence/unit tests.</p>
<p>But&#8230; we cannot forget that we must have useful documentation&#8230; and maintainability is an important attribute in that way. So, if it is not working, the team need to figure out some other way.</p>
<p>In my current environment, not every test is approved to become automated, and even if approved, it&#8217;s based on a scenario, not a story.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Burnett</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Burnett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-24</guid>
		<description>I have also been on a project where the acceptance tests were not maintained well.
I think they could have been much more useful if everyone took a bit more care of them.

I would be interested to find out what you see as the difference between integration and acceptance tests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have also been on a project where the acceptance tests were not maintained well.<br />
I think they could have been much more useful if everyone took a bit more care of them.</p>
<p>I would be interested to find out what you see as the difference between integration and acceptance tests.</p>
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		<title>By: Where do Acceptance Tests go to Die? at Fragmental.tw</title>
		<link>http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/testing/i-dont-believe-in-acceptance-tests/#comment-23</link>
		<dc:creator>Where do Acceptance Tests go to Die? at Fragmental.tw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 13:05:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=31#comment-23</guid>
		<description>[...] My colleague Sarah Taraporewalla posted an interesting text on acceptance testing. She doesn&#8217;t believe in this technique. I&#8217;ve been thinking of acceptance tests for some months now and think that she has a valid –a bit too radical but still valid- point. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] My colleague Sarah Taraporewalla posted an interesting text on acceptance testing. She doesn&#8217;t believe in this technique. I&#8217;ve been thinking of acceptance tests for some months now and think that she has a valid –a bit too radical but still valid- point. [...]</p>
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