Comments on: Women in Technology – who cares? I do. http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/ Tue, 08 Jun 2010 10:50:32 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Sarah http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-191 Sarah Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:49:15 +0000 http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=85#comment-191 @Peter - that is a staggering result! I wonder if this was a subconscious response or if it was somewhat deliberate. @Peter – that is a staggering result! I wonder if this was a subconscious response or if it was somewhat deliberate.

]]> By: Peter Gillard-Moss http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-187 Peter Gillard-Moss Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:43:26 +0000 http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=85#comment-187 > “we want hire good people, not just hire someone because they are a women” Returning to this statement the same thing was said about women in Orchestras. Research carried out on "The Big 5" (http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml) showed that once they carried out blind auditions they had a 350% increase in female members compared to when the music director knew the gender of the musician. Even more interestingly not only did the number of women getting past the preliminary round increase but the number of men decreased. > “we want hire good people, not just hire someone because they are a women”

Returning to this statement the same thing was said about women in Orchestras. Research carried out on “The Big 5″ (http://www.princeton.edu/pr/pwb/01/0212/7b.shtml) showed that once they carried out blind auditions they had a 350% increase in female members compared to when the music director knew the gender of the musician. Even more interestingly not only did the number of women getting past the preliminary round increase but the number of men decreased.

]]> By: Sarah http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-186 Sarah Fri, 14 Nov 2008 15:00:14 +0000 http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=85#comment-186 @Peter - yep, definatly. And although my focus is women in IT, we are not the smallest of minorities; the number of latin- or african-americans in IT (in US) is smaller than the number of women. @Martijn - I agree that as a long term goal, targeting the next generation of school leavers is important but we also need short-term goals/solutions. Perhaps promoting maths and science really early on, eg at primary school age, is the key. (Actually, as a society I don't think we value math or science for boys or girls as much as we should. For that matter, we don't even value education). There are various root-causes to this problem; one solution is education, but it should be coupled with other solutions. @Andy - There a certain initiatives which can be taken (such as doing pair programing) which should be taken for the good of everyone, not just because you want more women. I have posted about this here : http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/attracting-women-to-free-software-projects/ . However, organising events such as geek girl dinners where you focus on topics relevant to women in IT is no different than organising Ruby geek nights, where you focus on topics relevant to ruby. @Peter – yep, definatly. And although my focus is women in IT, we are not the smallest of minorities; the number of latin- or african-americans in IT (in US) is smaller than the number of women.

@Martijn – I agree that as a long term goal, targeting the next generation of school leavers is important but we also need short-term goals/solutions. Perhaps promoting maths and science really early on, eg at primary school age, is the key. (Actually, as a society I don’t think we value math or science for boys or girls as much as we should. For that matter, we don’t even value education). There are various root-causes to this problem; one solution is education, but it should be coupled with other solutions.

@Andy – There a certain initiatives which can be taken (such as doing pair programing) which should be taken for the good of everyone, not just because you want more women. I have posted about this here : http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/attracting-women-to-free-software-projects/ .
However, organising events such as geek girl dinners where you focus on topics relevant to women in IT is no different than organising Ruby geek nights, where you focus on topics relevant to ruby.

]]> By: Andy http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-184 Andy Fri, 14 Nov 2008 12:07:31 +0000 http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=85#comment-184 @Sarah - I think that the issue isn't so much about where we are looking, but about who is looking for us... This is why seeking to influence the community is a good thing. I think school / youth outreach programmes are the way to go, but I would strongly recommend _against_ making them "geek girl" events, as that is highlighting gender bias, rather than eliminating it. We need to encourage balance. It's not (for want of a better phrase) "girls are as good as boys", it's "let's show that technology is fun for everyone" @Sarah – I think that the issue isn’t so much about where we are looking, but about who is looking for us… This is why seeking to influence the community is a good thing.
I think school / youth outreach programmes are the way to go, but I would strongly recommend _against_ making them “geek girl” events, as that is highlighting gender bias, rather than eliminating it. We need to encourage balance. It’s not (for want of a better phrase) “girls are as good as boys”, it’s “let’s show that technology is fun for everyone”

]]> By: Martijn http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-181 Martijn Fri, 14 Nov 2008 11:03:55 +0000 http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=85#comment-181 The root cause of this "problem" lies imo in the fact women are underrepresented in IT/Technical educations (at least that's a fact here in Holland). I remember in college (Computer Science) the ratio male/female was around 15/1 or so. So I agree you should apply a broader view looking for potential female candidates. But what may be more important is getting women more interested in choosing computer/engineering sciences when going to university. Maybe by arranging girl geek events for high school kids. The root cause of this “problem” lies imo in the fact women are underrepresented in IT/Technical educations (at least that’s a fact here in Holland). I remember in college (Computer Science) the ratio male/female was around 15/1 or so.
So I agree you should apply a broader view looking for potential female candidates. But what may be more important is getting women more interested in choosing computer/engineering sciences when going to university. Maybe by arranging girl geek events for high school kids.

]]> By: Peter Gillard-Moss http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-180 Peter Gillard-Moss Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:53:39 +0000 http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=85#comment-180 > “we want hire good people, not just hire someone because they are a women” There is a hidden assumption in this statement. Essentially they are saying: a) The team we have are predominantly male b) We only hire good people I don't need to spell the assumption out but it also applied to any team that doesn't meet the WASP demographic. Of course one of (just one as there is are many women put off IT because of it's current demographic and descrimination) root causes for the truth behind this statement is that the pool of available IT workers is itself predominantly WASP like. The only solution to this is the one you present about attraction: >> It’s about finding new ways to reach out to the technologists so the target audience has a higher percentage of women. Other industries, such as construction, musicians (even more pathetic arguments have been used in the past for orchestras refusing women http://www.iawm.org/articles_html/buzzarte_advocacy.html), plumbing, electronics, science, food etc. have had far stronger stereotypes and have made more significant movements than IT so what conclusion should we make from that? > “we want hire good people, not just hire someone because they are a women”

There is a hidden assumption in this statement. Essentially they are saying:

a) The team we have are predominantly male
b) We only hire good people

I don’t need to spell the assumption out but it also applied to any team that doesn’t meet the WASP demographic.

Of course one of (just one as there is are many women put off IT because of it’s current demographic and descrimination) root causes for the truth behind this statement is that the pool of available IT workers is itself predominantly WASP like. The only solution to this is the one you present about attraction:

>> It’s about finding new ways to reach out to the technologists so the target audience has a higher percentage of women.

Other industries, such as construction, musicians (even more pathetic arguments have been used in the past for orchestras refusing women http://www.iawm.org/articles_html/buzzarte_advocacy.html), plumbing, electronics, science, food etc. have had far stronger stereotypes and have made more significant movements than IT so what conclusion should we make from that?

]]> By: Sarah http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-179 Sarah Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:40:10 +0000 http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=85#comment-179 Hi Andy, While I agree with your point that the combined pool is unbalanced and therefore it is harder to achieve a balanced recruitment policy, that should not deter us. Perhaps we are looking in the wrong places for great hires. Are our current startegies for finding the best minds geared to look in places where the majority of the communities are males? Couldn't we reach out to communities where the numbers are more equal? As you know, ThoughtWorks does not just hire IT graduates; infact we love the diversity that other degrees can bring. I have worked with a great developer, who has a PhD in genetics and another great developer who has a Masters in molecular biology. I think that looking for terrific minds in places where women more predominant can only help the cause. In my everyday working life, gender is not an issue. I am not discriminated because I am female. But sometimes it would be nice to go to socially interact with my workmates in a girly way. What am I doing? Personally, I have done various things: I am attending all the girl geek type events I can find, to spread the word about TW, I am begining to write blog posts like this to open up a discuss about what can be done; and I am leading an initiative within TW to address these issues within our own company. Hi Andy,
While I agree with your point that the combined pool is unbalanced and therefore it is harder to achieve a balanced recruitment policy, that should not deter us. Perhaps we are looking in the wrong places for great hires. Are our current startegies for finding the best minds geared to look in places where the majority of the communities are males? Couldn’t we reach out to communities where the numbers are more equal?

As you know, ThoughtWorks does not just hire IT graduates; infact we love the diversity that other degrees can bring. I have worked with a great developer, who has a PhD in genetics and another great developer who has a Masters in molecular biology.

I think that looking for terrific minds in places where women more predominant can only help the cause.

In my everyday working life, gender is not an issue. I am not discriminated because I am female. But sometimes it would be nice to go to socially interact with my workmates in a girly way.

What am I doing?
Personally, I have done various things: I am attending all the girl geek type events I can find, to spread the word about TW, I am begining to write blog posts like this to open up a discuss about what can be done; and I am leading an initiative within TW to address these issues within our own company.

]]> By: Andy http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/women-in-it/women-in-technology-who-cares-i-do/comment-page-1/#comment-178 Andy Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:00:34 +0000 http://sarahtaraporewalla.com/thoughts/?p=85#comment-178 It is very important that policies are not put in place that have outcomes like "We will have a 1:1 ratio of demographic x to demographic y", as this can cloud the decision making process. The goal should be to hire the best, this should be without regard to age, gender, race, religion or any other demographic. Unfortunately there is a shortage of women in IT. If we focus on levelling the demographic spread within our company, we have to start to prefer taking people from the minority demographic, and that has some seriously negative consequences. For example, lets say that the entry requirement is that you have to be in the 95th percentile of a given metric. In the majority demographic, this gives you a choice of 20 people, in the minority, it gives you 2. You have to hire 10 people. Let's say that the 2 people are ranked 2nd and 11th within the combined pool. Do you hire both to give you a ratio of 4:1 (at the expense of hiring a slightly poorer hire) or do you hire the best, giving you a ratio of 9:1? What if there is only 1 in the minority and the next closest comes at 91st percentile? How does this help you achieve your goal of demographic equality? Introduce some competition and it gets even more interesting... Let's say that the competition is more desirable (perhaps better known, or better compensated). They are hiring the top 5 from the pool. Do we attempt to convince number 2 to join us (although now we have to tempt them away from Company X, which means that we will have to deal with supply / demand issues). Do we compensate all people within the hiring group to the same level or do we keep our compensation a secret and offer number 2 a significant incentive? In order to achieve a balance within a company, the combined pool should be balanced. The only way for a company to influence this is through community initiatives designed to balance the pool (this should also be balanced, not biased), _not_ through hiring policy, and even then, competition for resources might find you lagging behind Company X. Finally, to answer your questions: 1. I don't know, I do not see gender as important. (Do you? Does it affect how you interact with your colleagues?) 2. That's the situation as it is. If I was aware of discrimination I would act to oppose it, but everyone seems happy here. 3. I run sessions after work to encourage good software design, these are open to all. So far I have recommended two women to my employer, and one to a client. Interestingly (and I hadn't realised it until just now), I can not remember recommending any men. What are you doing? It is very important that policies are not put in place that have outcomes like “We will have a 1:1 ratio of demographic x to demographic y”, as this can cloud the decision making process.
The goal should be to hire the best, this should be without regard to age, gender, race, religion or any other demographic.
Unfortunately there is a shortage of women in IT. If we focus on levelling the demographic spread within our company, we have to start to prefer taking people from the minority demographic, and that has some seriously negative consequences.
For example, lets say that the entry requirement is that you have to be in the 95th percentile of a given metric. In the majority demographic, this gives you a choice of 20 people, in the minority, it gives you 2. You have to hire 10 people.
Let’s say that the 2 people are ranked 2nd and 11th within the combined pool. Do you hire both to give you a ratio of 4:1 (at the expense of hiring a slightly poorer hire) or do you hire the best, giving you a ratio of 9:1? What if there is only 1 in the minority and the next closest comes at 91st percentile?
How does this help you achieve your goal of demographic equality?
Introduce some competition and it gets even more interesting… Let’s say that the competition is more desirable (perhaps better known, or better compensated). They are hiring the top 5 from the pool.
Do we attempt to convince number 2 to join us (although now we have to tempt them away from Company X, which means that we will have to deal with supply / demand issues). Do we compensate all people within the hiring group to the same level or do we keep our compensation a secret and offer number 2 a significant incentive?

In order to achieve a balance within a company, the combined pool should be balanced. The only way for a company to influence this is through community initiatives designed to balance the pool (this should also be balanced, not biased), _not_ through hiring policy, and even then, competition for resources might find you lagging behind Company X.

Finally, to answer your questions:

1. I don’t know, I do not see gender as important. (Do you? Does it affect how you interact with your colleagues?)

2. That’s the situation as it is. If I was aware of discrimination I would act to oppose it, but everyone seems happy here.

3. I run sessions after work to encourage good software design, these are open to all.
So far I have recommended two women to my employer, and one to a client. Interestingly (and I hadn’t realised it until just now), I can not remember recommending any men.

What are you doing?

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